A holodeck episode? Holodeck???

[Al Smith]

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

[Terwilliger]

Post by Al Smith
It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

They went to the "St. Elsewhere School of Series-Ending Episodes"

[Keeper of the Purple Twilight]

Post by Terwilliger

Post by Al Smith
It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

They went to the "St. Elsewhere School of Series-Ending Episodes"

Can we PLEASE put this utterly *false* rumor to rest?

The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON. Riker is viewing a historical record on the
holodeck.

[Elvis Gump]

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger

Post by Al Smith
It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

They went to the "St. Elsewhere School of Series-Ending Episodes"

Can we PLEASE put this utterly *false* rumor to rest?
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON. Riker is viewing a historical record on the
holodeck.

But HOW? How can he review holographic recordings of events that were never
recorded in that detail as stated in TOS when this takes place before TOS?

A major event such as Archer appearing at the signing ceremony for the
formal formation of the Federation which Daniels showed Archer, well that's
one thing. We could expect that to have been recorded for whatever passes
for a news media in the 22nd century, but a holographic representation of
say Trip being killed on the ship would probably not be recorded by any
internal sensors or even by tricorders on a landing party.

Whatever Riker would be watching on a holodeck would have to be an animated
reconstruction from eyewitness accounts and thus not very 'real'.

I think it sounds awful and appalling that the last time we see these
characters they are holograms, though I suppose it has a certain symmetry to
the fact of them being characters on a TV show and Riker is in a sense
watching "Star Trek" after a fashion...

Irony isn't dead I guess; it just had the wind knocked out of it...

[Anybody]

Post by Elvis Gump

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger

Post by Al Smith
It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

They went to the "St. Elsewhere School of Series-Ending Episodes"

Can we PLEASE put this utterly *false* rumor to rest?
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON. Riker is viewing a historical record on the
holodeck.

But HOW? How can he review holographic recordings of events that were never
recorded in that detail as stated in TOS when this takes place before TOS?
A major event such as Archer appearing at the signing ceremony for the
formal formation of the Federation which Daniels showed Archer, well that's
one thing. We could expect that to have been recorded for whatever passes
for a news media in the 22nd century, but a holographic representation of
say Trip being killed on the ship would probably not be recorded by any
internal sensors or even by tricorders on a landing party.
Whatever Riker would be watching on a holodeck would have to be an animated
reconstruction from eyewitness accounts and thus not very 'real'.

The same way Barclay recreated Voyager - in fact the same way they
create almost all the holodeck entertainments: a few parameters and
lots of guesswork.

[Eric Newman]

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:17:01 -0600, Elvis Gump

Post by Elvis Gump

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger

Post by Al Smith
It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

They went to the "St. Elsewhere School of Series-Ending Episodes"

Can we PLEASE put this utterly *false* rumor to rest?
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON. Riker is viewing a historical record on the
holodeck.

But HOW? How can he review holographic recordings of events that were never
recorded in that detail as stated in TOS when this takes place before TOS?
A major event such as Archer appearing at the signing ceremony for the
formal formation of the Federation which Daniels showed Archer, well that's
one thing. We could expect that to have been recorded for whatever passes
for a news media in the 22nd century, but a holographic representation of
say Trip being killed on the ship would probably not be recorded by any
internal sensors or even by tricorders on a landing party.
Whatever Riker would be watching on a holodeck would have to be an animated
reconstruction from eyewitness accounts and thus not very 'real'.
I think it sounds awful and appalling that the last time we see these
characters they are holograms, though I suppose it has a certain symmetry to
the fact of them being characters on a TV show and Riker is in a sense
watching "Star Trek" after a fashion...
Irony isn't dead I guess; it just had the wind knocked out of it...

I think you're missing the point of how the holodeck works. When
Voyager was on, there was speculation that Shatner would appear. Most
posters in the Voyager newsgroup said there was no plausible way (like
that would stop anybody) that could happen. I suggested that Janeway
could face some kind of problem and go into the holodeck to discuss it
with Kirk, which some posters conceded was a decent idea. Now, Kirk
never discussed anything with Janeway. Kirk never even met Janeway.
But neither did Leonardo da Vinci meet Janeway, nor did Crell Moset
(Cardie physician) meet Voyager's Doctor. I think what goes on in
these instances is that the holodeck draws on the Federation's vast
database of what historical figures looked and sounded like (the more
recent, the more accurate) and what their personalities were like,
then creates what are essentially holographic extrapolations. The
Voyager computer knows what Kirk looked like, knows what Kirk sounded
like, and knows enough about Kirk's personal and service record in
order to provide a useful simulacrum for Janeway to converse with.

[Elvis Gump]

Post by Eric Newman
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:17:01 -0600, Elvis Gump

Post by Elvis Gump

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger

Post by Al Smith
It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

They went to the "St. Elsewhere School of Series-Ending Episodes"

Can we PLEASE put this utterly *false* rumor to rest?
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON. Riker is viewing a historical record on the
holodeck.

But HOW? How can he review holographic recordings of events that were never
recorded in that detail as stated in TOS when this takes place before TOS?
A major event such as Archer appearing at the signing ceremony for the
formal formation of the Federation which Daniels showed Archer, well that's
one thing. We could expect that to have been recorded for whatever passes
for a news media in the 22nd century, but a holographic representation of
say Trip being killed on the ship would probably not be recorded by any
internal sensors or even by tricorders on a landing party.
Whatever Riker would be watching on a holodeck would have to be an animated
reconstruction from eyewitness accounts and thus not very 'real'.
I think it sounds awful and appalling that the last time we see these
characters they are holograms, though I suppose it has a certain symmetry to
the fact of them being characters on a TV show and Riker is in a sense
watching "Star Trek" after a fashion...
Irony isn't dead I guess; it just had the wind knocked out of it...

I think you're missing the point of how the holodeck works. When
Voyager was on, there was speculation that Shatner would appear. Most
posters in the Voyager newsgroup said there was no plausible way (like
that would stop anybody) that could happen. I suggested that Janeway
could face some kind of problem and go into the holodeck to discuss it
with Kirk, which some posters conceded was a decent idea. Now, Kirk
never discussed anything with Janeway. Kirk never even met Janeway.
But neither did Leonardo da Vinci meet Janeway, nor did Crell Moset
(Cardie physician) meet Voyager's Doctor. I think what goes on in
these instances is that the holodeck draws on the Federation's vast
database of what historical figures looked and sounded like (the more
recent, the more accurate) and what their personalities were like,
then creates what are essentially holographic extrapolations. The
Voyager computer knows what Kirk looked like, knows what Kirk sounded
like, and knows enough about Kirk's personal and service record in
order to provide a useful simulacrum for Janeway to converse with.

Well, we already saw that as well and better with the two Leah Brahms
episodes and here it seems a wholly unwarranted stunt rather than a
compelling way to end the series. The only thing I can think of that really
justifies it is they are seeking a way to interject a bridge between ENT and
TNG for the basis of a new series with Frakes and Sirtis, though why on
Earth they'd think they'd need to I don't know. Either way the audience of
core fans would show up no matter what. Why spoil it for the ENT cast by
taking screen time away from them?

Using it as a device to fast-forward the timeline of the series to get it to
Federation Day could be done just as easy as having the thing start with
Archer ready to enter that big hall where the Federation is about to convene
for the first time and start reminiscing about how they got there with T'Pol
or someone. Easy-peasy, no need for stunt casting.

I suppose it could be worse than "Turnabout Intruder" being TOS's swan song,
but then I shudder to think this thing may be even worse...

[Al Smith]

Post by Elvis Gump
Well, we already saw that as well and better with the two Leah Brahms
episodes and here it seems a wholly unwarranted stunt rather than a
compelling way to end the series.

I'm as sick of the holodeck as most fans, but I have to admit,
some of the holodeck episodes on TNG worked. The Leah Brahms
episodes were great because Geordi is such a doofus when it comes
to women. He really connected with the holographic Brahms, and her
outrage when she learns about it was a wonderful addition to the
saga of LaForge's hololetch.

But there is no holodeck on Archer's Enterprise. So what is it
doing in the final episode, the episode that should round off all
the unanswered questions and take us into the next series (if it
ever gets made)? It's like basing the final episode on the Dyson
Sphere that Picard discovered -- there's no reason for it. My own
view is that the final should have been the birth of the
Federation ... or pre-birth at least.

[Elvis Gump]

Post by Al Smith

Post by Elvis Gump
Well, we already saw that as well and better with the two Leah Brahms
episodes and here it seems a wholly unwarranted stunt rather than a
compelling way to end the series.

I'm as sick of the holodeck as most fans, but I have to admit,
some of the holodeck episodes on TNG worked. The Leah Brahms
episodes were great because Geordi is such a doofus when it comes
to women. He really connected with the holographic Brahms, and her
outrage when she learns about it was a wonderful addition to the
saga of LaForge's hololetch.

Yeah, though I didn't care so much for the 'space baby' part. Loved that
actress playing Brahms who was also on the John Laroquette sitcom a while
back that didn't last. She was great as the older woman next door neighbor
having a 'Mrs. Robinson' type affair with Laroquette's 18 or 20 year old
son.

Post by Al Smith
But there is no holodeck on Archer's Enterprise. So what is it
doing in the final episode, the episode that should round off all
the unanswered questions and take us into the next series (if it
ever gets made)? It's like basing the final episode on the Dyson
Sphere that Picard discovered -- there's no reason for it. My own
view is that the final should have been the birth of the
Federation ... or pre-birth at least.

That's why my guess is what R&T watch on the holodeck is the Founding
ceremony on Federation Day of Archer (I think that's what someone in TNG
called the day the Federation was founded anyway during a poker game, Troi
as a matter of fact which the date was the cards that were wild or sumthin)

Federation Day was already seen for the first time in ENT, so why not ended
it there? Of course I think Daniels only told Archer that if they didn't win
the Xindi thing then maybe the Federation wouldn't form, but not that he
would live to be there? Perhaps it ends with Archer dead and they honor him
on Federation Day in the newly minted Federation Council building as a bunch
of teary-eyed crew survivors look on?

If Bakula is gone contractually even if they miraculously got picked up
again that would be a fitting way for him to go out having done something
heroic to make the Federation possible.

[Al Smith]

Post by Elvis Gump
If Bakula is gone contractually even if they miraculously got picked up
again that would be a fitting way for him to go out having done something
heroic to make the Federation possible.

I've got nothing against sending Archer off heroically. At least
it would get rid of him. I've soured on Bakula this season. He
seems to be pulling a Chokotay -- more and more he barely seems
aware of what he's doing. His attempts at acting have not been good.

[Eric Newman]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:23:52 -0600, Elvis Gump

Post by Elvis Gump

Post by Eric Newman
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 21:17:01 -0600, Elvis Gump

Post by Elvis Gump

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger

Post by Al Smith
It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

They went to the "St. Elsewhere School of Series-Ending Episodes"

Can we PLEASE put this utterly *false* rumor to rest?
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON. Riker is viewing a historical record on the
holodeck.

But HOW? How can he review holographic recordings of events that were never
recorded in that detail as stated in TOS when this takes place before TOS?
A major event such as Archer appearing at the signing ceremony for the
formal formation of the Federation which Daniels showed Archer, well that's
one thing. We could expect that to have been recorded for whatever passes
for a news media in the 22nd century, but a holographic representation of
say Trip being killed on the ship would probably not be recorded by any
internal sensors or even by tricorders on a landing party.
Whatever Riker would be watching on a holodeck would have to be an animated
reconstruction from eyewitness accounts and thus not very 'real'.
I think it sounds awful and appalling that the last time we see these
characters they are holograms, though I suppose it has a certain symmetry to
the fact of them being characters on a TV show and Riker is in a sense
watching "Star Trek" after a fashion...
Irony isn't dead I guess; it just had the wind knocked out of it...

I think you're missing the point of how the holodeck works. When
Voyager was on, there was speculation that Shatner would appear. Most
posters in the Voyager newsgroup said there was no plausible way (like
that would stop anybody) that could happen. I suggested that Janeway
could face some kind of problem and go into the holodeck to discuss it
with Kirk, which some posters conceded was a decent idea. Now, Kirk
never discussed anything with Janeway. Kirk never even met Janeway.
But neither did Leonardo da Vinci meet Janeway, nor did Crell Moset
(Cardie physician) meet Voyager's Doctor. I think what goes on in
these instances is that the holodeck draws on the Federation's vast
database of what historical figures looked and sounded like (the more
recent, the more accurate) and what their personalities were like,
then creates what are essentially holographic extrapolations. The
Voyager computer knows what Kirk looked like, knows what Kirk sounded
like, and knows enough about Kirk's personal and service record in
order to provide a useful simulacrum for Janeway to converse with.

Well, we already saw that as well and better with the two Leah Brahms
episodes and here it seems a wholly unwarranted stunt rather than a
compelling way to end the series. The only thing I can think of that really
justifies it is they are seeking a way to interject a bridge between ENT and
TNG for the basis of a new series with Frakes and Sirtis, though why on
Earth they'd think they'd need to I don't know. Either way the audience of
core fans would show up no matter what. Why spoil it for the ENT cast by
taking screen time away from them?
Using it as a device to fast-forward the timeline of the series to get it to
Federation Day could be done just as easy as having the thing start with
Archer ready to enter that big hall where the Federation is about to convene
for the first time and start reminiscing about how they got there with T'Pol
or someone. Easy-peasy, no need for stunt casting.
I suppose it could be worse than "Turnabout Intruder" being TOS's swan song,
but then I shudder to think this thing may be even worse...

I wasn't saying I supported the idea. I was just giving my views of
how the holodeck worked.

[stephen voss]

The

Post by Eric Newman
Voyager computer knows what Kirk looked like, knows what Kirk sounded
like, and knows enough about Kirk's personal and service record in
order to provide a useful simulacrum for Janeway to converse with.

It could have been very funny in the right hands.

[Leon Trollski]

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON.

No it ain't.

They're gonna wipe out the entire series as some sort of sideline, fiction
or accident. The massive reset will be the show's conclusion, just like
Dallas and Bobby in the shower.

It's not canon, NX-01 wasn't inserted in NCC-1701's rec-dec paintings of
Enterpirse, NX-01 will have never existed. A fitting end to a stupid,
crappy, half-baked non-canonical idea.

[Nightspirit]

Post by Leon Trollski

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire
series
is fucking well still CANON.

No it ain't.
They're gonna wipe out the entire series as some sort of sideline,
fiction or accident. The massive reset will be the show's
conclusion, just like Dallas and Bobby in the shower.
It's not canon, NX-01 wasn't inserted in NCC-1701's rec-dec
paintings
of Enterpirse, NX-01 will have never existed. A fitting end to a
stupid, crappy, half-baked non-canonical idea.

Try doing a little research at Trekbbs.com, A trusted insider that
posted the original spoiler says nothing is reset it is a historical
recreation that Riker is studing. The Series stands as is get over it
already.
--
---
Have Fun,
Night Spirit

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~hipdale2/Riverton_Common.HTML

BSG Blog: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cylon12/
I am ready to meet my maker, but whether my maker is prepared for the
great ordeal of meeting me is another matter

[Keeper of the Purple Twilight]

Post by Leon Trollski
NX-01 wasn't inserted in NCC-1701's rec-dec paintings of
Enterpirse,

They actually thought about doing that (for the Director's Cut DVD) but
they decided it wasn't worth it since those pictures aren't easily seen
anyway.

Not that it matters, since that scene in the rec room in TMP was never
meant to show every single ship that was ever called Enterprise...

[David B]

Post by Leon Trollski

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON.

No it ain't.
They're gonna wipe out the entire series as some sort of sideline, fiction
or accident. The massive reset will be the show's conclusion, just like
Dallas and Bobby in the shower.
It's not canon, NX-01 wasn't inserted in NCC-1701's rec-dec paintings of
Enterpirse, NX-01 will have never existed. A fitting end to a stupid,
crappy, half-baked non-canonical idea.

Stop lying.

[Leon Trollski]

Post by David B

Post by Leon Trollski

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON.

No it ain't.
They're gonna wipe out the entire series as some sort of sideline, fiction
or accident. The massive reset will be the show's conclusion, just like
Dallas and Bobby in the shower.
It's not canon, NX-01 wasn't inserted in NCC-1701's rec-dec paintings of
Enterpirse, NX-01 will have never existed. A fitting end to a stupid,
crappy, half-baked non-canonical idea.

Stop lying.

I'm not lying. You'll see.

[David B]

Post by Leon Trollski

Post by David B

Post by Leon Trollski

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series

is

Post by David B

Post by Leon Trollski

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight
fucking well still CANON.

No it ain't.
They're gonna wipe out the entire series as some sort of sideline,

fiction

Post by David B

Post by Leon Trollski
or accident. The massive reset will be the show's conclusion, just like
Dallas and Bobby in the shower.
It's not canon, NX-01 wasn't inserted in NCC-1701's rec-dec paintings of
Enterpirse, NX-01 will have never existed. A fitting end to a stupid,
crappy, half-baked non-canonical idea.

Stop lying.

I'm not lying. You'll see.

No, I won't. Two insiders with fantastic track records with spoilers say you're
wrong. I trust them over you. These two have been right for several years now. I
don't know you.

[Leon Trollski]

Post by David B

Post by Leon Trollski

Post by David B
Stop lying.

I'm not lying. You'll see.

No, I won't. Two insiders with fantastic track records with spoilers say you're
wrong. I trust them over you. These two have been right for several years now. I
don't know you.

Your insiders are in denial because the franchise has been destroyed. I had
to learn here about 10 million viewers driven away, and things have been
sliding since NG was completed. Now people will spend more time attacking
each other than attacking the problem-declining product quality and
relevance-thus ensuring Star Trek is as dead as dead can be.

Your precious insiders are merely accelerating the process themselves with
gossip and backstabbing. The atmosphere is poisoned in that place, a
classic organisational failure that insiders can not even see.

[Eric Newman]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:58:09 GMT, "Leon Trollski"

Post by Leon Trollski

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON.

No it ain't.
They're gonna wipe out the entire series as some sort of sideline, fiction
or accident. The massive reset will be the show's conclusion, just like
Dallas and Bobby in the shower.

Except that "Dallas" went on for about six more seasons after that
dream thing.

Post by Leon Trollski
It's not canon, NX-01 wasn't inserted in NCC-1701's rec-dec paintings of
Enterpirse, NX-01 will have never existed. A fitting end to a stupid,
crappy, half-baked non-canonical idea.

[Terwilliger]

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:57:40 -0600, Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger

Post by Al Smith
It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

They went to the "St. Elsewhere School of Series-Ending Episodes"

Can we PLEASE put this utterly *false* rumor to rest?
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON. Riker is viewing a historical record on the
holodeck.

How does a series that quite often ignored canon get integrated into
the rest of the franchise canon?

Like I asked elsewhere, how will canon be rectified when the Romulans
are able to create holographic illusions of ships remotely controlled
through subspace communications, yet not be able to have "ship to ship
visual communication" when the wars happen a few years later?

[David Johnston]

Post by Terwilliger
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:57:40 -0600, Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger

Post by Al Smith
It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B
are going to end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode
-- even though Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And
it's a time travel episode, too, in the sense that it is happening
in the future. Double fish whap.

They went to the "St. Elsewhere School of Series-Ending Episodes"

Can we PLEASE put this utterly *false* rumor to rest?
The final episode is no less real than any other. The entire series is
fucking well still CANON. Riker is viewing a historical record on the
holodeck.

How does a series that quite often ignored canon get integrated into
the rest of the franchise canon?

They all quite frequently ignored canon.

Post by Terwilliger
Like I asked elsewhere, how will canon be rectified when the Romulans
are able to create holographic illusions of ships remotely controlled
through subspace communications, yet not be able to have "ship to ship
visual communication" when the wars happen a few years later?

As it turns out, it's not that the Romulans couldn't. It's that they
wouldn't.

[Keeper of the Purple Twilight]

Post by Terwilliger
How does a series that quite often ignored canon get integrated into
the rest of the franchise canon?

Simple, it doesn't ignore canon.

Post by Terwilliger
Like I asked elsewhere, how will canon be rectified when the Romulans
are able to create holographic illusions of ships remotely controlled
through subspace communications, yet not be able to have "ship to ship
visual communication" when the wars happen a few years later?

Who's to say the Romulans weren't *able* to have visuals? Maybe they
just chose not to.

[Kweeg]

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger
How does a series that quite often ignored canon get integrated into
the rest of the franchise canon?

Simple, it doesn't ignore canon.

Post by Terwilliger
Like I asked elsewhere, how will canon be rectified when the Romulans
are able to create holographic illusions of ships remotely controlled
through subspace communications, yet not be able to have "ship to ship
visual communication" when the wars happen a few years later?

Who's to say the Romulans weren't *able* to have visuals? Maybe they
just chose not to.

Indeed. All the "Enterprise doesn't follow canon crowd" beak off about canon
violations but they that have jumped to non-canon conclusions though
incorrect interpretations. The clocking devise obviously has gotten
progressively better, or TNG broke canon as they couldn't track Romulan
ships like Kirk's crew did years before. And let's not start about the
warbird (in BoT) being powered by "simple impulse." Powered dose not mean
the same as possesses no FTL drive. (different than a Warp drive)

[Terwilliger]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:50:07 -0600, Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger
How does a series that quite often ignored canon get integrated into
the rest of the franchise canon?

Simple, it doesn't ignore canon.

Well that clears it all up then.

Post by Keeper of the Purple Twilight

Post by Terwilliger
Like I asked elsewhere, how will canon be rectified when the Romulans
are able to create holographic illusions of ships remotely controlled
through subspace communications, yet not be able to have "ship to ship
visual communication" when the wars happen a few years later?

Who's to say the Romulans weren't *able* to have visuals? Maybe they
just chose not to.

Umm, because that would make as little sense as is possible yet fit
nicely with the contradiction.

[Raptor]

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double
fish whap.

I agree. This could be one big "reset". All four years of the show
was just a holodeck fantasy; it never happened!!
This would save Star Trek History living it in it's previously
pristine form. They did this with the Voyager episode "Living
Witness" when the doctor woke up 900 years in the future. It wasn't
a reset episode but we didn't know it was a holodeck show until the
end.

[Anybody]

Post by Raptor

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double
fish whap.

I agree. This could be one big "reset". All four years of the show
was just a holodeck fantasy; it never happened!!

Many fans already see Enterprise as though it never happened - just
like Galactica 1980 and Team Knight Rider. They're figments of foolish
people's imaginations. :-)

[Ren Hoek]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:52:53 +1300, Anybody

Post by Anybody

Post by Raptor

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double
fish whap.

I agree. This could be one big "reset". All four years of the show
was just a holodeck fantasy; it never happened!!

Many fans already see Enterprise as though it never happened - just
like Galactica 1980 and Team Knight Rider. They're figments of foolish
people's imaginations. :-)

Star Trek V would fall into that category.

[Anybody]

Post by Ren Hoek
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:52:53 +1300, Anybody

Post by Anybody

Post by Raptor

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double
fish whap.

I agree. This could be one big "reset". All four years of the show
was just a holodeck fantasy; it never happened!!

Many fans already see Enterprise as though it never happened - just
like Galactica 1980 and Team Knight Rider. They're figments of foolish
people's imaginations. :-)

Star Trek V would fall into that category.

So does the Star Wars Holiday Special. :-)

[Kweeg]

Post by Ren Hoek
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:52:53 +1300, Anybody

Post by Anybody

Post by Raptor

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double
fish whap.

I agree. This could be one big "reset". All four years of the show
was just a holodeck fantasy; it never happened!!

Many fans already see Enterprise as though it never happened - just
like Galactica 1980 and Team Knight Rider. They're figments of foolish
people's imaginations. :-)

Star Trek V would fall into that category.

No it wouldn't, but Nemesis would.

[Phil K]

Post by Al Smith
Everyone hated

Post by Al Smith
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager",

No "everyone" DIDN'T
Because YOU hated it, doesn't mean everyone did.
I thought it went too far, after good beginnings. But hated ? NO

[Your Name]

Post by Phil K

Post by Al Smith
Everyone hated

Post by Al Smith
the holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager",

No "everyone" DIDN'T
Because YOU hated it, doesn't mean everyone did.
I thought it went too far, after good beginnings. But hated ? NO

The problem was that the writers simply got lazy, relying on it as a
crutch. When they couldn't think of anything sensible to write that
actually fitted in the Star Trek universe (which became more aand more
often), they put the entire command staff on the Holodeck at the same time
... which was moronically stupid at the best of times, let alone in Deep
Space Nine on a space station sitting at THE most strategic point in the
middle of a war or in Voyager travelling through unknown space.

[Eric Newman]

Post by Raptor

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double
fish whap.

I agree. This could be one big "reset". All four years of the show
was just a holodeck fantasy; it never happened!!
This would save Star Trek History living it in it's previously
pristine form. They did this with the Voyager episode "Living
Witness" when the doctor woke up 900 years in the future. It wasn't
a reset episode but we didn't know it was a holodeck show until the
end.

It was 700 years, and what we learned at the end was that the events
we'd just seen were a historical re-creation of what had actually
happened.

[Dark Guardian]

Post by Eric Newman

Post by Raptor

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double
fish whap.

I agree. This could be one big "reset". All four years of the show
was just a holodeck fantasy; it never happened!!
This would save Star Trek History living it in it's previously
pristine form. They did this with the Voyager episode "Living
Witness" when the doctor woke up 900 years in the future. It wasn't
a reset episode but we didn't know it was a holodeck show until the
end.

It was 700 years, and what we learned at the end was that the events
we'd just seen were a historical re-creation of what had actually
happened.

Okay, but the main point of the post was to show that it did happen
in the ST franchise and may occur again. The holodeck wasn't shown
until the end of the episode. Also, early on in that episode they
got their facts crossed showing Voyager to be a warship full of
mercenaries bent on committing war crimes.

I find it strange B&B would write the final episodes for
"Enterprise" and not Coto. The chances of this being a "reset" is
great because of the advanced NX class, the Borg; the Ferangi, and
the ST fans nitpicks about certain details. I admit I was one back
in late 2001 when I last posted to this group but I've mellowed out
since then.

[Al Smith]

I find it strange B&B would write the final episodes for "Enterprise" and not Coto. The chances of this being a "reset" is great because of the advanced NX class, the Borg; the Ferangi, and the ST fans nitpicks about certain details. I admit I was one back in late 2001 when I last posted to this group but I've mellowed out since then.

It won't be a reset, just another lame holodeck episode from the
Bees. A B-episode, we might call it. As opposed to the A-episode
Coto would have written.

[Leon Trollski]

Post by Dark Guardian
The chances of this being a "reset" is
great because of the advanced NX class, the Borg; the Ferangi, and
the ST fans nitpicks about certain details. I admit I was one back
in late 2001 when I last posted to this group but I've mellowed out
since then.

See?

Keep fuckin' telling you, that's what's coming. How else are they gonna
save face? You tell me.

[Dark Guardian]

Post by Leon Trollski

Post by Dark Guardian
The chances of this being a "reset" is
great because of the advanced NX class, the Borg; the Ferangi, and
the ST fans nitpicks about certain details. I admit I was one back
in late 2001 when I last posted to this group but I've mellowed out
since then.

See?
Keep fuckin' telling you, that's what's coming. How else are they gonna
save face? You tell me.

B&B must really have bruised egos to baby.
It would make for a really good reality show
to see all the behind the scenes battles and
catfights that must be occurring on the production sets.
Well, if B&B are going to screw up; they might as well
go all the way!! LOL

[Eric Newman]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:08:42 -0800, Dark Guardian

Post by Dark Guardian

Post by Eric Newman

Post by Raptor

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double
fish whap.

I agree. This could be one big "reset". All four years of the show
was just a holodeck fantasy; it never happened!!
This would save Star Trek History living it in it's previously
pristine form. They did this with the Voyager episode "Living
Witness" when the doctor woke up 900 years in the future. It wasn't
a reset episode but we didn't know it was a holodeck show until the
end.

It was 700 years, and what we learned at the end was that the events
we'd just seen were a historical re-creation of what had actually
happened.

Okay, but the main point of the post was to show that it did happen
in the ST franchise and may occur again. The holodeck wasn't shown
until the end of the episode. Also, early on in that episode they
got their facts crossed showing Voyager to be a warship full of
mercenaries bent on committing war crimes.

I understand the point you're making. My point is that there's a small
but significant -- I'm not sure in what way it's significant, but it
is -- difference between finding out that something is happening on
the holodeck as a fantasy and that something is happening on the
holodeck as a faithful re-creation of something that actually
happened. Within the context of the show the latter is more
acceptable, but to the viewer both could be considered a cheat.

[greg brown]

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double fish
whap.

Yep, this is our "valentine". I read some fans online say that since it is
also a finale of sorts for Trek on T.V. in general, that it is fitting that
the TNG cast be involved. I guess because it was the most successful in
terms of ratings.

The problem is MOST fans of the other series haven't bothered to watch ENT,
otherwise we probably wouldn't be looking at a series finale. So the loyal
ENT fans, the 3 million or so diehards who have stuck with the show, now get
screwed in favor of having the ENT finale tie into the larger Trekverse with
a lame holodeck story and Riker and Troi taking up valuable screen time.

For ENT fans, if the finale turns out to be a decent episode it will be one
of the great upsets in the history of television.

This is really jacked-up.

Greg

[John Smith]

Post by greg brown

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double
fish whap.

Yep, this is our "valentine". I read some fans online say that since it is
also a finale of sorts for Trek on T.V. in general, that it is fitting
that the TNG cast be involved. I guess because it was the most successful
in terms of ratings.
The problem is MOST fans of the other series haven't bothered to watch
ENT, otherwise we probably wouldn't be looking at a series finale. So the
loyal ENT fans, the 3 million or so diehards who have stuck with the show,
now get screwed in favor of having the ENT finale tie into the larger
Trekverse with a lame holodeck story and Riker and Troi taking up valuable
screen time.
For ENT fans, if the finale turns out to be a decent episode it will be
one of the great upsets in the history of television.
This is really jacked-up.
Greg

That Riker has never been the same since the boy/girl with the crewcut
ditched him. Instead of rogering Troi, or some other babe senseless, he
spends his time watching saddos on a holo deck!? Gee, when it is over he
probably will put on a fake klingon forehead and stroll off to the local
Trek 'Comic Book Guy' Convention!

[Highlander]

Post by greg brown

It just struck me. What a feaking insult to fans. Everyone hated the
holodeck episodes on TNG, DS9 and "Voyager", and so now B&B are going to
end "Enterprise" the series with a holodeck episode -- even though
Enterprise the ship doesn't have a holodeck! And it's a time travel
episode, too, in the sense that it is happening in the future. Double fish
whap.

**snip**

Post by greg brown
The problem is MOST fans of the other series haven't bothered to watch ENT,
otherwise we probably wouldn't be looking at a series finale. So the loyal
ENT fans, the 3 million or so diehards who have stuck with the show, now get
screwed in favor of having the ENT finale tie into the larger

Trekverse with

Post by greg brown
a lame holodeck story and Riker and Troi taking up valuable screen time.

You're missing something here. Of the 3 million(that many?) diehard
fans, I'd guestimate 95% of them are die hard trekkies who've watch
most, if not all of Trek, certainly including TNG. So While ENT is
getting screwed, I don't think taht the fans are getting quite the
dis-service your talking about. Having said that putting the finale of
Enterprise into a TNG bottle show is kind of the final insult to
Enterprise. It's not strong enough on it's own to merit a finale of
it's own, so we have to use a TNG story line to help it out.....kinda
like the TNG tie-ins with Voyager...*sigh*

~Highlander